HOW LONG TILL THE SWP DENIES THE HOLOCAUST?

I  think Darren Redstar’s comment on the SWP/Hitler post is worth pondering some more:

‘if I have read the article right, Churchill was the real fascist, not Hitler. It was Churchills fault that the Blitz killed so many civilians, not the Nazi bombers. the Germans had no intention of defeating Britain, it was all a plot to bolster Churchills reputation.
WTF!
I have long dispaired of socialist worker, but what next? ‘how the Jews created the holocaust to justify Israel’?

some of the claims made in Bamberys article are straight from revisionist propagandists who seek to absolve Nazism of any stain, and do so in order to prepare to deny the Holocaust.
everytime I read the ramblings of senile trotskyism I wonder how low they can go, and everytime they prove that they can go even further’

23 Comments

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23 responses to “HOW LONG TILL THE SWP DENIES THE HOLOCAUST?

  1. Corporal Jones

    Sometimes your blog sounds like a bad episode of Dad’s Army. I think it’s totally correct for revolutionaries to question the myths surrounding WWII. For example, have you read “Human Smoke” by Nicholson Baker? That paints a very different picture from the official view of the build up to the war and the first two years (I think). It shows:
    1. Churchill was a murderous fucka.
    2. The bombing of cities was started by the RAF.
    3. The build-up fits entirely into the picture of an imperialist war. Unfinished business from WW1 etc.
    Also, its well-known that it wasn’t fought to save the Jews – many powerful voices in the “civilized” west wanted to send them to Madagascar or anywhere, as long as it wasn’t in their backyard. If it was fought to defeat colonialism then we would do well to remember that most of the world map was covered by huge swathes of red, i.e. the Great British Empire.
    Now, Nazis were nasty. Very nasty. No regrets there. But shouldn’t we question all our holy cows? I’m no historian of the Second World War but its our job to look at the evidence, sift it from the ideology (right, left, or centre) and learn the lessons. If the SWP got it wrong, then why?

    • Tom

      “many powerful voices in the “civilized” west wanted to send them to Madagascar or anywhere, as long as it wasn’t in their backyard. ”

      The Madagascar idea was Eichmann’s. I suppose you’ve not heard of the Balfour Plan have you — but I suppose you Swoppies think history is bourgeois don’t you?

  2. efrafandays

    I have long dispaired of socialist worker, but what next? ‘how the Jews created the holocaust to justify Israel’?

    I once spoke to a Swuppie in Edinburgh who told me that Jews had engineered the Great War for this purpose.

  3. durruti

    they certainly deny that the Islamists of the IFE/East London Mosque are war criminals and seem to forget their forgotten leader Cliff decribed the IFE parents, the Muslim Brotherhood, as “clerical-fascists”

  4. Captain Mainwaring

    Thanks to Corporal Jones for speaking some sense.

    (Except that I can’t imagine a bad episode of Dad’s Army.)

    Of course the Jews did not “create the holocaust”.

    On the other hand for years, supporters of Israel – Jews and non-Jews – have long exploited the holocaust to justify the crimes of a colonialist state that shuts out the majority of the indigenous population behind an apartheid wall, and generally treats Arabs as second class citizens.

    Read the Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein, for example.

    Let’s also not forget that scores of millions of innocent people were killed in the Second World War, a war that they played no part in starting and for the most part didn’t want.

    The mythical version of WW2 – a noble and selfless crusade which “we” reluctant amateurs won by playing fair, and in which every German is a beastly Nazi and therefore deserves to have his city fire-bombed – is disgusting nonsense.

    Only the British and Americans continue to wallow in this “our finest hour” garbage and viewed from abroad 70 years later, it looks increasingly comical.

    When “anarchists” go in for it, it’s simply ridiculous.

  5. Much as I hate to agree with Darren Redstar (who I think is a twat, for the record) about anything, he’s not entirely off the money here: Bamberry or whatever his name is was indeed making a ridiculous statement by saying Hitler wasn’t planning to invade Britain. Whether or not the invasion would’ve succeeded is a different story, but obviously he was planning to do it. The odds against him certainly weren’t any greater than in Russia, and he tried to invade them, didn’t he? I can also agree that WW2 was a clear case where I would’ve had to go with “the lesser of two evils” i.e. the allies.
    Now with that said… what Redstar does not point out is that the difference between Hitler and Churchill was only one of degree, not of kind. Churchill was up for oppressing and slaughtering innocent people *when it suited his/Britain’s particular economic interests*; “drive the rats back into their holes” (re Welsh miners on strike); “there is nothing wrong with the use of poisonous gas against barbarous tribes” (re rebels in British territories in North Africa). Hitler was up for oppressing and slaughtering innocent people based solely on his own insane agenda which knew no limits or boundaries. It is unequivocally a good thing that Hitler was defeated, because as dangerous as an attack-trained doberman pinscher is, a rabid attack-trained doberman pinscher is even more dangerous.
    It was definitely a battle between two different types of fascist oppressor though, one a bit more “rational” and the other completely insane, not a battle between “good” and “evil”. Would it have made any difference to the Kikuyu people of Kenya whether the British or the Germans claimed control over their land? The British starved them, rounded them up and put them in concentration camps where all were tortured and many had their genitals severed from their bodies without anaesthetic; how much worse could the Nazis have done?
    As for Redstar’s blitherings about Israel: I suggest people go to his blog “redstar commando”. Read the lines and read between the lines and tell me if his version of Israeli history doesn’t come straight out of that “Exodus” movie. Anything else is “revisionism”, and if you question Israel’s “right to exist” you are “sinking in the mud of anti-semitism” or some such bullshit, because “no other state is denied the right to exist” – perhaps because no other state *claims* such an abstract, a priori “right”, let alone one based largely on an ancient religious text that is replete with theological justifications for land theft and genocide? I found his post about the flotilla massacre (yes – “massacre”) especially bile-inducing, in particular his little contemptuous reference to “ISM hippies”, as Rachel Corrie, the “ISM hippie” who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer, happens to have been a friend of a friend of mine.
    Even twats can be correct sometimes though, and so Redstar is right to oppose the ridiculous conspiracy theory that Zionists engineered the Holocaust. That is indefensible garbage. However, given his black-and-white-with-no-in-between view of the world, I wonder if Redstar might be confusing such conspiracy theorists, with people who have pointed out that there were indeed elements among the various forms and factions of Zionism that did collaborate with the Nazis, and who are on the record saying that the more anti-semitic persecution there was, the better they would be able to advance their agenda. That is not conspiracy theory, it’s history.
    I wonder if Redstar includes people like Norman Finkelstein in his list of “revisionist” historians. Or if he ever considers that quite a number of the Jews who were annihilated in the Shoah would never, ever have wanted such an oppressive, racist, and hey let’s fucking say it *fascist* state as Israel to have been created in their name.
    I also wonder if he’s capable of replying to this post with anything other than the following stock epithets: “god botherer”, “anti-semite”; and without accusing me of “supporting a theocracy against a democratic state” which is what he accused me of doing when I brought up his snide little fuckery article about the Mavi Manara (or however it’s spelled) on Paul Stott’s blog.

  6. Shatterface

    ‘The mythical version of WW2 – a noble and selfless crusade which “we” reluctant amateurs won by playing fair, and in which every German is a beastly Nazi and therefore deserves to have his city fire-bombed – is disgusting nonsense.’

    Not every German who fought for the Nazis was a ‘beastly’ Nazi – but they still FOUGHT FOR THE NAZIS.

    The idea that Allied troops should have determined whether each and every German bomber pilot was a fully paid-up member of the Nazi Party or whether they sneakily took the piss out of Hitler when their superiors weren’t listening is ridiculous.

  7. “The bombing of cities was started by the RAF.”

    Actually you might find that the bombing of civilians was first used as a terror strategy by the Luftwaffe’s Condor Legion at Guernica during the Spanish Civil War.

    This is not to say that Bomber Harris wasn’t also a complete cunt, but when it comes to wanton savagery for savagery’s sake the fascists tend to win hands down 😉

    • Camisard

      Let’s not forget the bombing of Kurds by the RAF in the 1920s (’21?), ordered by Churchill. Shouldn’t see it as a competition – it’s all bad.

  8. Captain Mainwaring

    “The idea that Allied troops should have determined whether each and every German bomber pilot was a fully paid-up member of the Nazi Party or whether they sneakily took the piss out of Hitler when their superiors weren’t listening is ridiculous.”

    Indeed it is a ridiculous idea. Who is suggesting it?

    “Not every German who fought for the Nazis was a ‘beastly’ Nazi – but they still FOUGHT FOR THE NAZIS.”

    Yes, because the alternative was to be shot or beheaded.

    Not that many were equipped to make a rational choice because all the opposition had been executed, sent to concentration camps or had fled into exile. Kids entering the Wehrmacht had known virtually nothing but NS propaganda.

    And how about the beastly Germans who were on the receiving end of daily and nightly terror from air raids that made absolutely no distinction between combatant and non-combatant, let alone Nazi and non-Nazi?

    I never felt I would see the day when anarchists felt they had to outbid each other in order to demonstrate who is the most chauvinistic.

    But I guess that’s what happens when you define your politics as the opposite of the SWP. You end up indistinguishable from a saloon bar Tory.

  9. Tom

    Didn’t the Germans Bomb Sunderland by Airship in WWI and some might argue did the place a good turn

  10. sonic

    Utterly disgusting blog post Ian. I hope you and your new chums are very happy together.

    http://hurryupharry.org/2010/08/29/history-lessons-from-the-swp/

    Anarchists buying into the World War Two was a War for Democracy claptrap, Just shows you what happens when they get older.

    A quick chorus of “Rule Brittania” Ian?

    • “Anarchists buying into the World War Two was a War for Democracy claptrap”

      Just because somebody finds Bambery’s comments incredulous does not mean that they buy into MOI/MOD propaganda and the usual patriotic rubbish.

      In fact a commitment to say exactly the opposite to the received dogma – no matter how ludicrous the result – suggests that a person is an ideological reactionary who will argue up is down if they think it will make them look more wadical or wevolutionary.

      If somebody is not allowed to say ‘I think that’s bullshit’ when they honestly think it is, then we wouldn’t be sticking to the anarchist principles we claim to hold. This is why a blog post that allows honest debate – no matter how heated – is 100 times more useful than the usual rhetoric we see everywhere else.

      That said, when you consider how subjective history is this does seem like a bit of a distraction when we have bigger (Tory) fish to fry 😉

      “Just shows you what happens when they get older.”

      Sit down and drink your milk you fucking ageist bastard!

  11. Liam

    Ian your neo patriotism is pathetic and shows a clear lack of political insight and a narrow minded view of the world seen as always through “made in britain” specs.

  12. anon

    So this is the New New Left is it? Fucking historical revisionism huh? I guess making out Hitler wasn’t so bad makes sense if you’re currently getting in bed with a bunch of holocaust denying clerical fascists – as have the SWP and their right on, wadical mates.

    Well, screw that.

  13. (Red and) Black Shuck

    Ian your neo (but critical) working class patriotism is inspiring and shows a clear sense of political insight and a broad minded view of the world seen appropriately through “made in Britain” – but internationalist – specs – not like the sad SWP … You are right about revisionism. That SWP piece sounds like Irving to me.

  14. climate action

    The first people who the Warsaw Ghetto Resistance (made up of Bundists and left-Zionists) shot were the right-Zionists who had been appointed as “community leaders” by the Nazis.
    Some Zionists come close to holocaust denial when they ignore the roll that sections of their movement played. This went as far as loading Anarchists and Socialists onto the Nazis cattle trucks and trains.
    The question “What next? ‘how the Jews created the holocaust to justify Israel’?” is disgusting because it conflates “the Jews created” with “right-Zionists aided”.
    It is false to accuse those of us who remember the holocaust as it happened of “Trotskyism” or, by implication, of anti-Semitism.

  15. (Red and) Black Shuck

    You really think that complied with the Nazis’ orders had much of a choice? They ended up being loaded on those trucks themselves. For goodness sake, the Jewish authorities in the Ghetto can hardly be described as ‘aiding’ the Holocaust except by someone willing to stretch the words so much as to become historical fantasy. Calling them ‘right Zionists’ is absolute nonsense. Take your stupid Trot specs off. Take the complexities of history more seriously.

  16. Corporal Jones

    Don’t panic! Don’t panic!

    from today’s torygraph (Friday):

    “Churchill even once said: ‘Fascism has rendered a service to the entire world… If I were Italian, I am sure I would have been with you entirely’.
    (source some French historian – read the article lazy!).

    We have to distinguish two basic motivations for the war from a Brit perspective:
    – that of the ruling class (imperialist, fascist loving scumbags)
    – that of the working class who no doubt believed they were fighting fascism and for a better world.

    But is what you believe to be the case and what actually is the case, the same thing?From our perspective, this society is all fucked up because one class monopolizes all the power. If this is the case then the agenda for WWII has to be that of the ruling class, logically. In which case it was in no ways progressive but like every other imperialist war completely destructive to society and the working class (after all, whose cities were destroyed, whose lives were wasted in their millions?).
    No doubt there were acts of heroism displayed by British forces – but the same would be true of the Nazi and fascist squaddies too no doubt. Heroism is not the point. The point is the reasons/causes.
    For me then, this war, like all others in capitalism, was imperialist. Thus revolutionaries should oppose it.
    I wonder if some of our attitudes to WW2 are formed by our generational position? I have no contact with the war apart from Dad’s Army and my grandparents banging on about it. Thus, I’m sick of hearing about it, its “nobility”, how it “brought us all together” etc. For me, it destroyed Europe and much of the world and left 50-60 million dead. Surely, comrades, that’s just one almighty pile of cock!

  17. Lowestoft's Finest

    What did you do in the war daddy?

    I caught this program “Bandits of the Blitz” on Radio 4, well worth a listen.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00tmtj8

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