Knee jerk anti-fascism i think is typified by UAF / lancasteruaf / and by many posters on indymedia
instead of trying to understand social movements of the right it decides anything it does not understand of the right is fascist and neo nazi ( they use the word interchangably) . worse they fail to see changes in fascism ( in particularly the rise of ‘post fascism’ in Italy and France) and try to box it all into some 1930s model of fascism. This is an error of disasterous proportions as the parctice that flows from this mistaken theory is then, and it has been shown to be, a total failure that see both the BNP and EDL expanding at a fast rate in working class and lower middle class communities.
So the BNP are fascist, and on that we will, I am sure, agree, in that their role is to divide the working class in the interests of the capitalist state. But really it is more importnat that they are ‘post fascist’ in that they are anti state, they are loyalist, they are not revolutionary, they are not into military expansionism and they are, to an extent, multi cultural, having sikh, jewish and muslim supporters and indeed elected councillors of those backgrounds. Attempts to link them with Hitlerism and ‘national socialism’ fall on deaf ears in the disempowered white communities they organise in.
But the EDL are not fascist nor racists, nor neo nazis, though they certainly do attract people who are. EDL have regularly denounced fascism and particularly Hitlers german fascism and those who support them. They have on video burnt a nazi swastika. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkKmzNpUBM4 Y
You will also notice that in this video that several of the EDL members are black. EDL have consistently carried placards saying ‘Black and White Unite’ and attacking the BNP ( who themselves denounce the EDL as a state provocation which may have some element of truth) . The leader of the London Division of EDL Joel Titus is himself mixed race and has stated he is proud of his ‘black’ roots. At a recent london demo EDL members ‘did’ a group of neo nazis in and outside a Whitehall pub who had been taunting them over their not being racist or anti-semitic. Another of the EDL key activists is an american jewish zionist student in London. They couch their anti muslim slogans from the POV of human rights, against those who would take rights away from women and gays.
Many ‘kneejerk anti fascists’ don’t understand how the EDL is not fascist even though the role it plays in society, that of dividing people, is the role fascist groups also play.
But EDL is clearly not fascist, but loyalist, that means loyal to british constituitional democracy, the queen and rights for all. They simply do not understand why they the white and mixed race and black working class who were once one of the most privilaged working classes in the world ( due to both imperialism and the strength of the trade unions) has been disempowered, while Islamofascists, who have killed over a hundred Brits in the last few years at 9/11 and 7/7, from migrant communities with deeply conservative social values that appear opposite to everything british ‘fair play’ ( myth or not) stand for, are propagating reactionary quasi fascist politics on the streets.
When you look close at the EDL via it’s forums and the individuals involved you clearly see that loyalism is what they are. Their basis is in ex squaddies and the chants “no surrender to al queda” are a direct descendent of the “no surrender to the IRA”. They, like most people in this country, think this is the best country in the world, even though it is ‘going to the dogs’, and they are prepared to fight for it, and indeed many of them have directly fought for it and know people who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Now Britain is guilty of many crimes but the fact remains is it is one of the most socially mixed, most socially progressive countries in the world.
So what does this failure to understand mean for the tactics?
Simply that they are a failure. With the BNP HnH/UAF have produced millions of anti BNP leaflets and newspapers over the last few years but as they mistake what the BNP advertise themselves as and as they mistake why people vote BNP ( essentially as a protest) they fail to hurt the BNP to any extent. There is also a danger that at some stage people who vote BNP as a protest will begin to believe they are fascists as they are told they are. And then we realy are up shit creek! Anti fascism has almost nothing pratcial useful to offer as it is entirely negative. Simply telling people not to vote BNP or that they are fascists does nothing useful to pratically help.
The same with the EDL. So when people attack them for being fascist they fail to hit any target with the EDL and their periphery. Indeed many ordinary onlookers will draw the conclusion that the EDL are correct, as the Left seem to be keener on attacking white lads that muslim jihadis and fundies. To attack a group for being racist when they have black members and to attack them for being nazis when they fight with nazis clearly just does it work.
So what should we do? Re the BNP I think the anti-nazi stuff has a role but only works when it comes from people who are respected and indeed this is the key issue. If you wish to change society you will not do it by screaming and shouting and chanting and running around the streets. You will do it by working consistently and respectfully with the people where you live and work. If you just parachute into areas and leaflet anti-nazi material you will persuade some people but actually convince others that you are not interested in peoples every day existence, while conversely the BNP are.
Equally we have to deal with the issue the BNP are using, whether housing or work. We do not need anti-BNP coalitions but coalitions that deal with the everyday problems people face. It is this that will undercut the BNP and if push comes to shove, provide the numbers to physically drive them out if needs be.
And the same for the EDL. They do have a point that a decent left would be taking on board that the Islamo fascists Hamza and Choudary and their crews need confronting as much as the BNP as their role in society is as bad, and it is good that increasingly anti fascists are, like Phil Dickens in Liverpool.Personally, as a white w/c man I would think it best if we support progressive muslims to smash these muslim fascists and let us get on with destroying the BNP. So first we need, if we claim to be anti-fascist, to be consistent and oppose all fascism. second these idiot attempts to physically confront the EDL need to stop. If it were not for the police the anti-fascists would quite simply get mullahed. Progressive community campaigns are best but they have to take on board the neccessity to stand up against all reactionaries, british or muslim. if they simply condemn the EDL they will fail.
But more important we need provide an alternative to the BNP and EDL. We have lived through 30 years now of neo-liberalism ( or Thatcherism) and it has seen working class communities dismembered and disempowered. Bizarrely much of the activist and the @ movement ( part from Class War and a few others) has almost entirely spent the same time absenting itself from these very communities at best and at worst condemning them for being reactionary. This has been disasterous as now people see the BNP and EDL, not the @s or the Left, as both the radical and the default option for protest.
We need to junk activism and all the pet Indymedia distractions, circuses, SHAC, biolabs, palestine, edo, etc etc and understand that if we want to change society we can not do it from the outside but only from the inside. that if we want to change society it will only happen when the majority want it.
start talking to your neighbours, to your colleagues, start building from the base 
durruti02
Ian Bone 
The method durruti02 rightly criticises, of labelling groups fascist without any nuanced analysis of their politics, is exactly the method he and other anarchists follow in labelling political Islamists ‘fascist’.
🙂 yes fair point. i have used it rhetorically, but technically you are right. some middle-east political islamist groups could be more correctly be called islamo-fascist but yes as a catch-all it is wrong. 🙂
This is a well thought out peice by Durruti02. What is one of ‘the lefts’ most famous slogans of recent years, ‘we are all hamas'(not me thanks!). Heres what the left have been up to recently…
“Jewish man jeered at Soas university debate.
Footage has emerged of a man being told he is “not welcome” after revealing his Jewish name at a School of Oriental and African Studies debate on Palestine.
The film shows Jonathan Hoffman ask why Soas university allowed a man condemned as an anti-Semite by the South African Human Rights Commission (SAHR) to talk.
Upon revealing his name there are boos and shouts of “Jewish!” Anti-racism campaigners called it “chilling”. ”
The left are happy to have its roots based in student and identity politics, anything meaningless basicly. Durriti02 is right that we need to start being a regular sight in our own communitys battleing whatever vile shite there is out there.
Hi Sam,
You said:-
“What is one of ‘the lefts’ most famous slogans of recent years, ‘we are all hamas’(not me thanks!). ”
You speak as if ‘the left’ some how had communal ownership and approval of this ‘famous’ slogan. This slogan was reportedly chanted by a few Muslim women on pro-Palestinian demo last January but was quickly drowned out by “free free Palestine”.
You said:-
“Upon revealing his name there are boos and shouts of “Jewish!” Anti-racism campaigners called it “chilling”.
I was wondering why you left out the links to this article, when I read it I found out why:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8419532.stm
“Also in the audience was Naomi Wimborne Idressi. She said: “I am a Jew and I am very sensitive about anti-Semitism. There was no anti-Semitism at the meeting.”
“A Soas University spokesman said: “Soas has strict guidelines against hate speech and incitement to violence at public events… From what is shown in the clip in question, that appears not to have been the case at this event.”
I presume you did not want readers to find out about these inconvenient facts.
“We need to junk activism and all the pet Indymedia distractions, circuses, SHAC, biolabs, palestine, edo, etc etc and understand that if we want to change society we can not do it from the outside but only from the inside. that if we want to change society it will only happen when the majority want it.”
sorry mate, those that are fighting against HLS, circuses, Biolabs, Israeli rule over Palestine and against UK arms manufacturers will disagree, years of battle on the streets against the above take there toll. This last para doesn’t help or encourage solidarity.
The fact of the matter is simple;an anarchist version of the EDL-should of left the launch pad a year ago.Reason why this didn’t happen;we,as a movement, can’t differentiate between patriotism and class patriotism.And this is the hurdle we are yet to cross…..
I love the slogan…if it doesn’t ring true to the most die hard of anarchist freedom fighter we need to turn everything upside down all over again.
One of the more curious things which I found interesting is talking to the organisers behind Herefords “Heckler” free anarchist paper which is posted through thousands of Herefordian letterboxes is that some of the only BNP membership addresses in the county came from roads which they missed.
Frustrated working class people need to know there is a support base of like minded angry people who have the same worries and issues with this social mess.
If we don’t put ourselves out there the fash will.
An excellent piece of writing, thanks for sticking it up on the site
The English Defence League are a motley bunch of right wing football hooligans, BNP supporters and disillusioned youth looking or a good day out. Their presence on the streets is the first serious attempt by the far-right to control the streets since the BNP left that ground with their tail between their legs in the early to mid 1990’s. The group first appeared in Luton on 24th May in response to the actions of supporters of the Islamic fundamentalist Anjem Choudary who had jeered British troops returning from Iraq. On that occasion the EDL, some clad in balaclavas and Union Jack flags smashed shop fronts of Asian owned businesses and attacked people of Asian origin at random.
Since their debut in Luton the group have gone on to stage demonstrations in Birmingham, Leeds, Swansea, Wrexham, Manchester, Glasgow and Nottingham. When the group have managed to leave the comfort of the local Weatherspoons violence has invariably flared. During their demonstrations in Birmingham, Manchester and Nottingham scuffles broke out between local youth, anti-fascists and EDL supporters.
While the claims of some anti-fascists that the outstretched arms of EDL members in song are Hitler salutes are often far-fetched and tedious, there is little doubt as to the the groups links with the far-right. The group was co-founded by BNP member David Cooling, BNP activist Chris Renton and Paul Ray who has recently developed a friendship with German former neo-nazi Nick Greger himself a close friend of the UVF’s Johnny “Mad Dog” Adair.
While the EDL have done their utmost to veil their links and similarities with the established far-right they have been unable to silence the more overtly racist elements at their demonstrations. In Birmingham members sang “dirty Muslim bastards” at a group of Asian lads while in Swansea supporters sang “we hate Paki’s more than you” and burned an anti-fascist flag. More recently the EDL have turned their attention towards anti-fascists as well as local Muslims with EDL supporters and anti-fascists clashing in the streets of Nottingham.
The EDL have made various token gestures aimed at convincing the general public that they aren’t a racist or fascist organisation, in a well choreographed publicity stunt members of the EDL appeared on Newsnight burning a flag emblazoned with a swastika. They have also strenuously denied any links to the BNP while the BNP have also done their best to distance themselves from the group realising that any connection could spoil all their hard PR work in presenting themselves as an “acceptable political party”. While the two groups seek to distance themselves from one another it is hard not to see the similarities in the language of the two. Like the BNP the EDL know the importance of avoiding the accusation of racism. The EDL say they are not against ordinary Muslims but rather Islamic fundamentalism, however quite how going on the piss and chanting “dirty Muslim bastards” and “we want our country back” combats Islamic Fundamentalism is anyone’s guess. This strategy of scapegoating Muslims is one that has worked wonders for the BNP over the last 10 years and one that the EDL know will attract people to their cause. The group attracts some people who are genuinely concerned by the spread of political Islam, a threat which does exist but that is over hyped by the mainstream media and made more noticeable by the current war in Afghanistan. That said the role of the group in reality can be little more than to stoke up racial and religious tensions in the country.
Quite what the long term strategy of the EDL is apart from stirring up trouble between Asians and whites in local communities is unclear at the moment. What is clear is that they taken nationalist politics back to the streets and that the involvement of some British football firms in their actions shouldn’t be ignored. Around the same time that the EDL emerged BNP activist Lee Barnes wrote an article on his blog entitled “The Transition Point for Nationalism” in which he called on the National Front (NF) to abandon electoral politics and concentrate on street activism. On his wish for the NF to turn to street politics Barnes wrote;
It could take all those Nationalists that have rejected the demands required for electoral politics, for whatever reason, and train them up and deploy them as street activists to counter the reds on the streets.
Now while the NF have not disbanded as a political party nor play a leading role in the EDL, though their members have appeared on EDL demos, it isn’t hard to see that the EDL are filling this role as a nationalist street mob who’ve increasingly taken to looking for fights with members of the anaemic UAF and other anti-fascists. The BNP could never mobilise in this way since it goes against their new image of family friendly, suited euro-nationalists, however another group of nationalists not attached to the BNP fulfilling this role not only takes the pressure off the BNP from more militant anti-fascists who may be drawn into confrontation with EDL but it also opens up the possibility of a second front for nationalism in the UK
“We need to junk activism and all the pet Indymedia distractions, circuses, SHAC, biolabs, palestine, edo, etc etc and understand that if we want to change society we can not do it from the outside but only from the inside. that if we want to change society it will only happen when the majority want it.”
WORD!
The thing that really needs to go above all else is the undemocratic, authoritarian, anti-debate style. I have critcisms of Class War but all the CW people I’ve known have far more respect for differing points of view than the wierd religious cult that the activist left has become.
We were writing a spoof about the EDL called ‘ELD: English Libertarian Defence’ when we heard about Durruti02’s post. We never got around to finishing the spoof because we felt it was beginning to make some sense and required more thought, but the following points regarding propaganda and community may be relevant to this post…
A lot of people (over a lot of years) have been calling for a celebration of positive Englishness; the good Mr Bone has argued the point on this very blog. The liberties that the EDL are claiming to be trying to protect are the result of years of friction between the rulers and the ruled; every ‘liberty’ is a concession by the ruling class made at a time when class consciousness has been strongest (and therefore most threatening). The English working class have an awesome history when it comes to social justice and intolerance towards abuses of power. Our folklore is incredibly anti-authoritarian and our history – with the likes of the Levellers, the Diggers, the Chartists, etc – is alive with radical libertarian ideas; Thomas Rainsborough used the term ‘anarchy’ in a positive light some 360 years ago and William Godwin (1756-1836) is arguably the godfather of modern anarchism.
If we abandon English social history (and with it a uniquely English strain of libertarian philosophy) simply because it’s ‘Englishness’ offends the PC sensibilities of the moribund left then we risk abandoning one of the most powerful forms of social bonding there is. It IS possible to be positive about the cultural history of a geographic region without believing that this is the best or only way to live, and without wanting to impose that culture on anyone else – the essays of George Orwell describe this ‘positive patriotism’ (for want of a better description) much more eloquently than we ever could.
We need to celebrate the fact that many of the liberties that we hold dear today have deep roots in English culture – because if we don’t the EDL certainly will. The ‘Liberties of England’ should be seen as a work in progress – i.e. a progression towards greater liberty (aka anarchism). With their Burqas/Mini-skirts slogan the EDL would have us believe that they are somehow working in favour of these liberties themselves, but a quick look at their forum shows just how authoritarian these guys really are. The Nazi model of fascism has become the default image and we forget that fascism doesn’t necessarily have to be ‘racist’ to be a threat; the Italian model was far more tolerant, but no less dangerous to liberty – indeed in it’s most potent guise, religion, it welcomes anyone and everyone as long as they are ready to submit to it’s laws. For this is the real heart of fascism; a submission of individual responsibility to a authoritarian system/figure/belief in exchange for the illusion of ‘security’ (security in return for conformity). The history of the 20th Century showed the danger inherent in all forms of authoritarianism (left and right) and the first decade of the 21st Century has seen the dominant neoliberal system take a massive swing towards fascism – again in the name of ‘security’.
It is not enough to simply protect the hard-won liberties we already have (as the EDL claim to be doing), we must advance them. This move towards liberty/freedom lies at the heart of the anarchist cause; as Lucy Parsons said “Anarchism has but one infallible, unchangeable motto, “Freedom.” Freedom to discover any truth, freedom to develop, to live naturally and fully.”
The history of the English working class is itself a history of a progression towards freedom, and we would do well to celebrate that fact.
A lot of people (over a lot of years) have also been calling for anarchists to work more closely within communities; this should be an absolute no-brainer for anyone who believes in ‘mutual aid’, whether they identify themselves as class struggle anarchists or not. We’ve often said that the problem with most social centres is that they’re not very social 😉
But we underestimate people if we feel we have to drop every other issue in the name of class politics – just because somebody is working class doesn’t mean that they don’t have an opinion on the arms trade, the environment or animal cruelty. True, single issues can detract from the bigger picture and there’s nothing more fascistic than the vegan police 😉 , but anarchism is weak in this country BECAUSE it plays the same sectarian games as the left; let’s not add fuel to this self-destructive fire.
Those of us who do work within our communities know that the vast majority of people are wary of strangers bearing overtly political aspirations – hence the vagueness of the EDL’spolitical standpoint – and are rightfully mistrustful of hidden agendas. Anarchists must work within communities first and foremost to practice their own belief in the ‘beautiful idea’; not to try and convert people to anarchism – though this is, of course, a welcome side-effect. Most people have more respect for someone who speaks their own mind than they do for a smooth talking toadying bastard; let’s leave the false sympathy to the Lib Dems 😉
It’s not that the vegan secret police and hippies detract from the bigger picture. It’s just that they’re totally irrelevant to most people’s lives, including my own, so I will not touch them with a bargepole. Why bust your ass for something that has nothing to do with you in any way, shape or form?
As for sectarianism – why do they start a whole new sect devoted to this weeks trendy cause that nobody gives a toss about every five minutes? It’s just so pointless.
When it’s relevant to people’s everyday lives, single issues are cool and people will get involved. For instance the environmentalists of the 90s, while quite hippy-dippy in many ways, did, at the end of the day, fight to save local beauty spots from the bulldozer. So they got lifts and vists and support from the public, including me.
Another example is when it personally affects you. I have no time for trots but as we have a local rep for Defend Council Housing in our block, i.e. some organised restistance to privatisation, it looks like we’re not going to get our homes privatized. This is a Good Thing.
Some impassioned words….Part of Barnsdales rant touches upon the problem.Can you love the(working class) culture of your country and not be a nazi.
Yes.
For me,it seems a lot of people are missing the point that Boney has been attempting to make on this blog,long before the EDL made itself known…that being that there is a political void out there.It is a vacuum created by complete distrust of politicians and all political traits by the working class.
Anarchists have the potential to take over this space….but not as they project themselves at present.
We hate flags,we hate boundaries we hate ….our country….it plays straight into the hands of the extreme right.
I’ll say it again-an anarchist version of the EDL,complete with real answers for now problems
that wasn’t scared to upset the left or the right should have happened a while back-but it is still a possibility.
For the detractors,I ask;if we were going to form a mass army from below around the magnetic poles to which text book anarchist actions and propoganda believe the army will initiate and form-we’d have the start of it by now considering the economics of today.
Fact;we haven’t got it.
Fact;we could get it if we take a chance.
Fact;we are fucked if we don’t.
Fact;the only obstacles are anarchists,the limitations of an almost prehistoric theory,
and an inability to adapt….
Baby,bathwater,haircuts,lifestylism,diet fetishes,snobby individualism out the fucking window….we need to land back on the hard concrete of the street,to find our roots so we can really move forward.
“Barnsdales rant”
Yeah, sorry, we did get a bit rambling for a minute there 😀
It’s worth pointing out that we not only need an anarchist version of the EDL, we also need a strong pro-working class organisation. Not necessarily a ‘party’ as such, but some form of high profile community based union/activism that stands in complete contrast to the empty rhetoric of ALL current political parties. The early work of the IWCA made small, but significant inroads to this kind of community based organising.
durruti02 wanted a debate here there is one and i have herd nothing from him, barnsdale is 100% right on this be intresting to here from durruti02 and his thoughts..
some great comments on here from east ham dave badnewswade and the barsndale brigade. and great news that fashwatch.org have just come out only weeks after Paul Stott of Antifa did, with a similar politics. as the shite starts to hit the fan maybe enough of us are finally starting to realise that what has gone before has been an unmitigated disaster
Some parts of this article are bang on, especially saying that the EDL and BNP are not technically fascist – parts of it are similar to the already existing SP analysis of the rise of the BNP;
ONE IMPORTANT REASON for the mistakes of both UAF and Hope not Hate is that they describe the BNP as a fascist party and raise the danger of fascism coming to power if it is not defeated. This is not new. In the 1970s, and again in the early 1990s, the Anti-Nazi League (the antecedent to UAF) argued that fascism could come to power. Then and now, far-right parties represent a real danger of increased racist attacks and widening divisions within the working class, and mass campaigns and demonstrations against them are needed. However, they cannot accurately be described as fascist, and the threat is not comparable with the rise of classical fascism. Fascism in Germany and Italy in the 1920s and 1930s was a mass movement, mobilising sections of the middle classes and unemployed and lumpenised workers, in order to smash the organisations of the working class.
In Germany in 1929, the middle layers of society – small businesspeople, managers, farmers and so on – made up around 50% of the population. The economic crisis and the development of hyper-inflation had ruined them, often leaving them even worse off than the working class, which at least had trade unions to protect its interests.
Potentially, these middle layers could have been won to the side of the working class and the struggle for socialism. However, the repeated failures of the working class to take power, as a result of the false policies of the leaders of the workers’ organisations, meant that a large section of the middle class was won to reaction, dressed up in the language of ‘national socialism’.
At the same time, the capitalist class, with its system in desperate crisis, was willing to bankroll fascism’s rise to power as the only means by which it could maintain its system – over the bones of the workers’ movement. In 1930, big-business funding of the fascists in Germany increased exponentially. As a result they won 107 seats in the Reichstag. Adolf Hitler afterwards recalled the “astonishing campaign” where “a thousand speakers each had a car at his disposal”. Once in power fascism did act ultimately in the interests of capitalism, violently disassociating itself from its middle-class mass base as it did so. However, this was not without huge cost for the capitalists, who would be very reluctant to resort to fascism again, preferring when they cannot govern through capitalist ‘democracy’, to resort to a more straightforward military dictatorship.
Today is a very different situation to the 1930s. In Germany and Italy, the working class had missed repeated opportunities to take power. In Germany, there were two mass workers’ parties – the Social Democratic Party (SPD) and the much smaller Communist Party (which nonetheless had 130,000 members in 1928). The leadership of these parties, in different ways, failed to lead the working class in a struggle for the socialist transformation of society – in the case of the SPD, consciously handing power back to the capitalists.
Today, the working class is not yet challenging for power. In Britain and many other countries, it does not even have its own mass party. The workers’ movement is beginning to regroup after a long period of confusion where its consciousness was pushed back. Nonetheless, the fundamental strength of the working class remains intact, it retains its capacity to struggle, and is potentially the most powerful force in society. The potential also exists to win large sections of the middle layers of society (in the economically advanced countries a much smaller section of society than in the inter-war period) to the side of the working class.
Link here: http://www.socialismtoday.org/131/bnp.html
I’m really glad that I came across this, and not just because I receive an honourable mention!
I was beginning to feel like I was shouting in a corner for a while. A lot of groups and individuals have made token noises about opposing militant Islam, but I don’t think I actually saw anyone calling for mobilisation until after I made a call-out on Indymedia, hoping that somebody in London would organise against Choudary.
As far as the label of “fascists” goes, I have tried to stick to more factual analysis of why their particular brand of nationalism (loyalism is a good term to use, I think) is anti-working class. However, I know I was guilty of it when I coined the slogan:
“No Gods, No Masters – NO MULLAHS & NO FASCISTS!”
Actually, thinking about it, the label of fascism is appropriate for the EDL. But only in the context that the first organised fascist group in Europe was Lord Carson’s Ulster Volunteers, pre-cursor to the B-Specials.
But if we think of fascism in the narrow sense of Hitler and Mussolini, of course, then the EDL aren’t fascist.
The left has not even scratched the surface of the scale of the political problem that some currents of Islam present in the UK.
To give one example, the main religious party in Pakistan is the Jamaat e Islami (JeI, although spellings in English do vary slightly)
For much of this year, Pakistan has suffered an attack on the scale of 7/7 on a virtually weekly basis. And the response of JeI?
To announce this week that all these attacks have been carried out by American defence contractor Blackwater, or the Indian government:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20091214story_14-12-2009_pg7_17
JeI is influential here in the UK, firstly at a succession of mosques but in particular via the Islamic Foundation in Leicester, UK Islamic Mission and Muslim Education Trust.
We cede power, respect and influence to such institutions and groups at our peril. Their world view is irrational and reactionary – and as Anarchists we should not be afraid to say so.
i noticed last night that someone had copied this article / page onto indymedja. i looked just now and it has been hidden like the original article was. lol!! they don’t like anyone on there who disagrees with their hack UAF party line do they!!
it had one comment
“Christ
22.12.2009 02:50
Indymedia seems to have become a magnet for every idiot who opposes all the existing anti-fascist groups around. OYB”
dear oh dear oh dear .. what is wrong with people?
The article was hidden on Indymedia because you stated that EDL are not racist and this is inaccurate. It was not hidden for any other reason.
Here is the definition of racism from Wikipedia:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
“Racial discrimination typically points out taxonomic differences between different groups of people, although anyone may be discriminated against on an ethnic or cultural basis, independently of their somatic differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnic discrimination.”
To describe being a Muslim as only belonging to a religion is too simplistic, in the same way that describing someone as being Jewish in the same terms would be. There is a cultural aspect to this, and as such Asian Muslims are an ethnic group just as Jews are. Singling out and disliking an ethnic group because of their culture or religion is racism on paper too as you will see from the Wikipedia entry above. I read your comment about the Notts Asian lad who has rejected Islam, watches the football, probably eats fish and chips on the way home, and supports the EDL. The same applies here, he has effectively rejected his culture and ethnicity and joined a different one. Racism is not just about skin colour, it is about identity too and this can be transient.
On the streets the EDL aren’t just protesting against sharia law, they are shouting racist abuse at Muslims who they know nothing about and in all likelihood do not support sharia law (since most don’t), and parading the Israeli flag in front of them knowing full well they are angry at the oppression of Palestinian people. It is charitable to the extreme to define them as “reactionary” but “not racist” for the reasons I stated above, especially since the leadership make no effort to distance themselves from or root out the many supporters who do shout racist abuse. Actions speak louder than words. We have to apply the same standard to them as we would to ourselves, if any of us associated with racists or anti-Semites for political purposes we would rightly be classed as racists. I am sure many EDL members do not consider themselves racist, and they project this on their website and in their discussion forums because they are convinced of it themselves. However you should not take their hazy definition of racism at face value.
I think it would be helpful if rather than defining them as “not racist” you explore to a finer level of granularity exactly where their prejudices lie, i.e. that there is an ethnic and cultural element to this racism and not a somatic one. Also I think it would be helpful to be clear about your definition of the EDL. In the article you outrightly said “the EDL are not racist..”, which is completely at odds with their street behaviour, but when asked later how you could justify this in the face of such massive evidence to the contrary you changed your argument and said you were only referring to the EDL leadership. How about you rehabilitate your hazy definition of racism and repost the article to Indymedia?
What a depressingly familiar diatribe . When will you learn that in order to actually comment on a subject with anything approaching solid credentials one must get upclose and personal with ones subject . Most if not 90 per cent of EDL members are not racist nor facist and hold no beliefs akin to either . The other 10 per cent are as ignorant and as slow as you thus not having worked this out just yet !
With regards to the claim that ‘EDL are not racist’ here is a fictional analogy:-
The “Palestinian Defence League” (PDL) are a purportedly militant anti-Zionist street movement of mainly young Asian men. There are also a few white men who come along, some who even claim to be Jewish but say they are fervently anti-Zionist. They have organised many protests in towns and cities where high concentrations of Jews live. In particular they have targeted the streets Golders Green in London, a popular hang out for many Jews, and also the New West End Synagogue which has a strongly pro-Zionist stance. They march through the streets with Kefiyehs covering their faces and they shout “Jewish Terrorists off our streets!”, one young man was recorded on video being bundled into a bus by the police singing “I hate Yids more than you!”. On their website they have expressed anger at ‘how the British state has capitulated to Jewish extremism’ describing what they say as ‘political correctness gone too far’. Last week they featured on the Newsnight programme where they met a reporter in a disused warehouse. They state they are not anti-semitic, and set fire to a Hamas flag to make their point. Their protests have been met across the country by angry mobs of Jewish people, many belonging to the Zionist Federation who want to fight what they describe as “a mixture of crypto-islamofascism and antisemitism” and running street battles have occurred in 3 cities now. They have been widely criticised for targeting Jews rather than zionists, and their claims of not being antisemitic have been condemned as “transparent”. There are concerns that this group are gaining a grip on the minds of young, impressionable and disillusioned Muslim youths.
It is good to see you openly debate in public here Mike but sad that you do not allow that on IndymediaUK. I had no idea previous to this that IndymediaUK banned debate if they disagreed with certain things. Whether EDL are racist or not, it is not for activists to ban the opinions of others, but to debate openly and allow and facilitate open debate.
Hi Durruti02,
Indymedia moderators will hide misinformation and disinformation which you are currently promoting by stating “the EDL are not racist”. We have always done this and will continue to do so. You are confusing a verifiable fact with opinion.
There is a mountain of evidence to prove the EDL are racist which you have ignored, and you are prepared to swallow all the propaganda on the EDL website at face value and cite it as evidence that they aren’t. Quite simply, the EDL leaders are racist because they created an organisation which attracts racists, carries out racist actions, and they stand and watch with smirks on their faces. Meanwhile they have a propaganda offensive to pretend they aren’t racist, but the only people they seem able to convince are racists who think they aren’t, oh and Durruti02.
Durruti’s points of view:-
1.) None of the key members of EDL are racist.
2.) Hating Muslims is not racism.
3.) It is the fault of groups like No Borders that the BNP and EDL are successful because they are “playing into the hands of the far right”.
4.) Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism.
5.) Indymedia is anti-Semitic because it has Anti-Zionist posts.
Here’s the thread where you still need to answer questions D02:
https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/12/443817.html
Are comments pre-moderated here?
Mike not only do you support censorship, you lie about what I write.
1) I have not said this; I have never suggested that none of the key members of EDL are not racist. I have repeated ad nauseum that the organisation on paper is not racist. it is clear that while the organisers are not racist in a ‘white power’ way they are probably prejudice against Islam.
2) I have not said this; EDL do not as far as i can see hate muslims so the question has not arisen. I do think that hating Islam is not racism. Most anarchists I know are phobic over religion particularly Islamists, American End Days nutters and the UCKG! BTW do you support Islamism?
3) this I agree; but you narrow it down too far. I believe people like you are part of the problem with your obsession with marginally relevent issues like Zippos Circus, Barry Horne, EDO, SHAC and the rest and also by the narrow minded sectarian way you and FTP have dominated and driven out pretty well all the others, with any common sense, from IMCUK 😉
4) again you lie, I have never said this nor do I believe this ( fuck me you are getting desperate to throw this one in!!LOL) ; I do believe though that some anti-semites use anti-zionism as a cover
5) wow you have totally lost it now!! ; never have i said this and in a thousend years would i believe it! what totally codswallop! utter nonsense! go and have a cold shower ffs.
This is Indymedia in 2009. Run by people incapable of seeing a political argument, only to capable of banning something they don’t agree with, pushing their own agenda instead of safeguarding Indymedia as open source and resorting to lies and smears. very sad.
@Durruti:
Not sure if you’ll see this as the thread’s a bit old… but anyway…
I don’t have a problem with most of what you say on this thread (although I think “no burqas in brum until there are mini skirts in mecca” is an idiotic slogan, not a snazzy or catchy one… and isn’t that in effect a call to “ban the burqa”? I don’t think that’s any more progressive or “libertarian” than a call to “ban the hoodie”)… but my main issue is, why do you agree that “groups like No Borders are the reason EDL/BNP are succesful because they are playing into the hands of the far right?”
Especially since you make it clear further down in this thread that you are in agreement with the idea of “no borders”… well I imagined you would be as you are presumably an anarchist.
Assuming that your problem with No Borders is not a personal one with individual activists in that group, what is your problem with it?
Is it that they say “no borders” too loudly? Are they only supposed to whisper it after they’ve spent ten years exclusively supporting whatever struggles you see as not being “marginal” to the [white/british-born] working class? Is the white/british-born working class too thick or too selfish or too brainwashed to be convinced of the truth by people simply explaining the truth to them? Well, obviously some are, but I don’t think they are on the whole. Maybe I’m just spoiled cos I live in a town where even the white people are nice for the most part 🙂 … but I don’t think people need to be slowly spoon-fed anarchism sneakily.
Immigrants are an integral part of the working class, not a “marginal” one.
I don’t see Palestine as a “marginal” issue either. And I do not think the state of Israel has any “right to exist”. Why should it have such a “right”? It is an illegitimate gangster settler colony, full stop, and it’s telling that it was practically joined at the hip with the apartheid regimes of the two U.S.A.’s that used to exist (Union of South Africa and the other one). There is nothing “anti-semitic” about saying that and many Jews would agree with me.
Lastly there is no contradiction or mutual exclusiveness in being involved in No Borders, animal rights, stop EDO, etc. etc. and being involved in your local posties’ strike or whatever other issue you see as being less “marginal”. As someone else on the thread pointed out, it’s often the same people involved in all these things.
One person’s “marginal” is a next person’s “central.” PS the way the state is treating asylum seekers, etc. now is definitely a prelude to how they’re gonna treat the rest of you “central” people in a few short years to come, so if simple human compassion and solidarity isn’t enough to convince you of the importance of such “marginal” issues, then that fact should be.
PPS I am not an actual member of No Borders.
I don’t think the EDL are anyway represented of the “white” working class as most people would see them for what they are – frustrated football firms, without the ability to organise a decent ruck. If the left, including UAF did not mobilise, then what happened in Luton would also have happened in Birmingham and Harrow.
You can say what you want about the UAF I would agree, but to assume everyone that genuinely comes out to oppose what they see as a violent threat as part of it plays in the hands of the left in trying to monopolise resistance. There are very dangerous parts of the EDL that will act violently given the opportunity, be it when they break through police lines, or charge at a group of young asians ( like in Brum).
I was of the opinion that the EDL could be tackled by dialogue but if that dialogue is fundementally based on them not existing I don’t think we’ll get very far.
The time for sitting on the fence is over, we either have confidence in our ideas and are prepared to defend them or we will be tagging along to any non-conformist fad that comes along. I think our ideas are stronger than that, and that people genuinely will support the values we have against any of these thick twats in the EDL.
“I believe people like you are part of the problem with your obsession with marginally relevent issues like Zippos Circus, Barry Horne, EDO, SHAC and the rest and also by the narrow minded sectarian way you and FTP have dominated and driven out pretty well all the others, with any common sense, from IMCUK ”
You are so petulant – it’s sad. Your running around the net claiming your views have been banned is absurd. They patently haven’t. as anyone who looks at the many threads you have posted on will see for themselves. I will not be responding to you again, until you address my posts on that thread.
Hi Durruti,
I’ve got the emails you sent me to prove it. You have said yourself that the EDL are not racist, and in a rather roundabout way you have said that the hatred of Muslims by the EDL is not racism because Islam is a religion not a race. Oh, and this is what you had to say about anti-Zionism and Indymedia:-
“i have seen these people at Gaza and other demos. They argue Israel is Nazi and should be wiped off the face of the earth. Many of them have politics that is quasi fascist. they carry placards and banners showing jews with hooked noses and bloody hands holding dead babies of the left only the AWL oppose them as the racists they are.
Indymedia report their activities uncritically and anyone who is unorthodox is shouted down and accused of zionism.”
Please direct me to the Indymedia reports of anti-Semitic protest 🙂 I think you will find you can’t because you are a liar and you made it up.
I get the impression that you enjoy winding people up and say controversial things just to annoy people. Every article you have written has been inflammatory and attracted many comments. Maybe you like the attention this gets you, but you should not go screaming “liar” when people call you on things you have said yourself.
I digress, it is Xmas and I have people I need to spend time with rather than argue. Seasons Greetings Durruti, love and kisses xxx
Who are all these boring twats? Why have they bought their pathetic lovers tiff here? Well, I suppose it all goes to remind us that the left is riddled with in-fighting, twattish pricks like these. And they wonder why ordinary people want as little to do with them as possible.
Pathetic lovers’ tiffs? Infighting? Ordinary people? R U 1? (an ‘ordinary person’, that is – whatever that means…). In this case disagreement and non-unity is a sign of a healthy debate – or would you have everyone singing from the same hymn-sheet (dunno what yours is). If I have to pin my colours to the mast, I think Rasta has spoken most sense on this thread.
“3) this I agree; but you narrow it down too far. I believe people like you are part of the problem with your obsession with marginally relevent issues like Zippos Circus, Barry Horne, EDO, SHAC and the rest and also by the narrow minded sectarian way you and FTP have dominated and driven out pretty well all the others, with any common sense, from IMCUK”
I’m quite interested in this debate, but don’t take a pop at us doing SHAC, Zippos Circus and AR stuff. Animal rights stuff often actually has an effect, unlike many campaigns results are normally seen! Also it finds a good amount of support among many sections of the working class public. You call this guy a ‘narrow minded sectarian’ when you are the one picking on a activist community just because you don’t agree with the cause. AR people are active in all areas of campaigning, anti-fash, community work, etc.
This is a fascinating article. I’ve always thought that there were really two parts to the left’s opposition to us. A large part of the opposition to us is actually not opposition to us at all but rather opposition to some mythical Nazi racist EDL that doesn’t actually exist. I remember I was heading up to Manchester for the demo and got a call from a (politically apathetic) friend at U of Manchester who said the UAF had been around leafleting and telling everyone to go join the UAF protest ‘against racism.’ Everyone that turned up because of that was not actually protesting against the message of the EDL, but against something else entirely.
However, it is obvious to anyone with even the most basic familiarity with the left that even once we get people to accept the reality of who we are–an anti-racist, anti-totalitarian yet thoroughly patriotic organisation–we would still encounter opposition from a hard core of people who oppose our genuine goals, not simply the myths about us. This will include the Islamists, obviously, but it will also include anarchists and anyone else who is against national sovereignty/borders, private property, and all the other foundations of our liberties.
Glad we can understand each other, sorry we can’t agree.
-EDL Yank Jew Zionist
ps. cheers for the shout-out!
pps. I’ve checked the wikipedia definition of racism and it does seem to stretch the term beyond what a word should reasonably be expected to take. If racism = ‘opposition to certain oppressive practices/values of an alien culture,’ then I suppose I’m racist, but I don’t think it does mean that.
ppps. (I know, this is getting ridiculous) I also sympathise with your rhetorical use of ‘fascism’ even when not technically correct. I had that problem when trying to coin banner slogans. Was thinking something along the lines of “UAF: We Oppose White Fascists AND Asian Ones. Do You?” but of course we’re not talking about fascists, are we, we’re talking about theocratic movements which, while oppressive, are utterly unrelated to modern fascism, and who are often in conflict in the Middle East with secular, properly fascist governments. I try to use the word ‘totalitarian’ as a more accurate term.
zzzzzz
FreedomFry is one of the “big” leaders from EDL. Just to put you straight you fucking twat, most anarchists despise you as much as they despise the UAF/SWP – see you on the streets you nationalist prick.
FreedomFry just happens to be an American Jew, now that,s a strange brew to be a nationalist prick.
For your information FF has made efforts to bring so called moderate moslems into EDL.
Freedom Fry may be of Jewish heritage but is an out and out zionist that has attached himself to the EDL because they are against Islam. Maybe he should concentrate on his studies at Kings College that mummy and daddy are paying for.
Interesting that this discussion has re-opened after so long.
I appreciate your concern over my studies, although I assure you I’m doing quite well. And thank you as well for the compliment regarding my family’s financial resources, although I fail to see how it’s relevant.
I’m not quite sure how you figure that ‘Jew’ and ‘Zionist’ are somehow opposed. I think it’s the experience of most people that they compliment each other rather well. If anything, the rabid anti-Semitism of the political left, manifested through an obsessive and exclusive hatred for Jewish self-determination, demonstrates quite effectively why Jews need their own homeland. They can’t count on always being welcome in the currently free countries, especially with the current rate of Muslim immigration.
I’m wondering as well how you claim any sort of authority on what motivates my activism, especially as you are seem not be tuned in enough to know that I haven’t been affiliated with EDL since shortly after the original exchange on here.
Ah well, all the best.
Is Patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel? I bet some public schoolboy from the FO wrote that to salve his conscience. Indeed, the last refuge lays claim to refugee status. This makes all patriots dishonourable and knavish in search of refuge. Perhaps this is what Orwell meant when he said that you could set nothing against the power of nationalism. I must drop him a line and ask.
@ FF. Yes you are spot on in your analysis; there is the naive opposition to the EDL of the liberals (uaf, swp, @s etc) and there is also an educated, class conscious, opposition of the radicals.
And you are correct we oppose “..national sovereignty/borders, private property..” though how you think those things are the ” ..foundations of our liberties…” mystifies me! i thought the ‘foundations of our liberties’ were the people themselves, not the countries they live in or the property they do or don’t hold! Indeed the most important historic British ‘..foundation of our liberty..’ is the ‘Charter of the Forest’ that sets out the peoples rights to the natural resources of the land and was thus explicitly anti-private property.
And thank for for clarifying where EDL stands. And it confirms why I noted that EDL is still as much a danger to ordinary people, as a ‘loyalist’ (as different to being a fascist) grouping as is the real fascists/racists (albeit of the new suave variety) of the BNP.
Your defence of “..national sovereignty/borders, private property, and all the other foundations of our liberties…” places you directly in support of the rich scum who have divided us and exploited us for too long, using borders and property… and who you do seem not to have noticed use race, religion and division to carry on their exploitation. And currently seem to be using the EDL and Islam4UK in a double act for that purpose.
So while you are correct to identify the totalitarianism in the Choudary wing of Islam (and fascism of a sort in some Mid-East versions of Islam) and while it is understandable ordinary british people (of whatever religion btw) should oppose them, EDLs role in society is divisive and fundamentally plays no progressive role in uniting communities against those who are ripping us off day in day out.
And by appearing to ‘attack’ the muslim community when you have a go at Islam4Uk etc, you actually will help the extremists within that community.
Btw funny that EDL pops us when the shit hits the fan economically isn’t it?? 😉
.. and also, just out of interest matthew, how DO you square zionism with respect for private property?
When did not wanting your country to be invaded becom racist/fascist?